valery legasov tapes transcript

[I began] to speak about the necessity of the next generation of reactors to be safer; say TTER reactors or liquid salt reactors that I was trying to present as the next steps towards safer reactors. April 26 19 Valery Legasov dictated a tape recorder in. I have not seen a single group in the Soviet Union that raised and considered [the analysis of nuclear safety] with any degree of competence As for the RBMK reactor, you know, in reactor circles, it was considered a bad reactor. He discovered. But yet, he, how should I tell you, well, didnt want to die for this philosophy. To make sure of this, I had to get into that APC and go near the reactor. But everything will remain inside the containment. When we were just nearing Pripyat, about 8 to 10 kilometers from it, I was struck by the appearance of the sky. Do you understand? These words were pronounced immediately and directly, Prepare for evacuation. And to carry out the tasks that I would define to limit the consequences of the accident. was a good physicist, of course, but he also got into this story. Measuring the surface temperature in this manner was still an exceedingly difficult task. [They made him retire.]. Then we built the Beloyarsk Nuclear Power Station and the Novovoronezh Nuclear Power Station. After that, we began to give way sharply in all fields, give way and just started to decline. And this could have happened a few years ago. For example, at the meeting on the 14th of June, Nikolai Ivanovich Ryzhkov said in his speech that this disaster did not seem accidental to him; that nuclear energy with a degree of inevitability was heading towards such a tragic event. It was scary to see such a situation. [11] He often visited the theater with his wife, having a love of reading Russian and foreign literature, particularly the works of Yuri Bondarev. A procedure for ordering materials was established already; a procedure for work fulfilment. But, money being limited, no investments were made for 10 years. Minatomenergo led the work on the preparations to launch the 1st and 2nd blocks and had already started to gradually make their way into the 3rd block to assess its condition. Dosimetrists with devices, instead of assault rifles, should have been everywhere. It was considered bad because of economic reasons. During the initial days, all this hadnt been organized and this was shocking. And they should be based on independent physical principles and one of the two systems should not depend on the operator. They are trying to increase the reliability of the reactor so that there would not be an accident. And I could not win in these matters because, to the reactor people from the Ministry, I was a chemist, and this allowed them to not listen to my opinions carefully and to treat my suggestions as sort of fantasies. We broke off pieces of facing from one of the buildings and took them from Pripyat to Chernobyl. Moreover, the measures that can be taken to prevent this from happening are known. A hotel was nearby, a very good one, where the local authorities met us. They did not violate the formal order in which the scientific leadership was under the Institute of Nuclear Energy. Before conducting the experiments, there were no simulations of possible situations, that is the situations were not walked throughwhat will happen if there is a protection malfunction; what will happen if the process does not execute as planned; how should the staff react in one situation or the other; can the reactor be left running when the steam supply to the turbine is stopped; and if this is done, what could happen; what will happen if the main circulation pumps are switched on. This is what occupied us on our hour-long flight. In the scientific sphere, I chose a fascinating field for myself which I have already mentionedchemical physics related to creating unusual substances, creating systems that would allow obtaining hydrogen in one way or another, linking places where hydrogen is obtained to nuclear energy generation sites. But there are only four of them, the American ones. So I just say what Im afraid of, and I already am afraid. The direct opposite to the work of this group was the work of, for example, the Civil Defence group in the composition in which they operated in the initial days. After the medics signed, it was announced that the city is being evacuated. The first design mistake was that there should be at least two emergency protection systems, as required by international standards and as common sense suggests. Adamovich: [faintly audible] And he remained there. passed it. This was one set of tasks. This is the first circumstance. You know, I was not met with understanding anywhere. Because the final decisions were taken collectively by the Government Commission or by Shcherbina personally. After Anatoly Petrovich Alexandrov was elected president of the USSR Academy of Sciences, he made me the first deputy director of the institute, entrusted me with several responsibilities regarding the management of the institute, but did not change my responsibilities in the scientific sphere. Reading these records makes your hair stand on ends. As a result, one project alone, of the three successful projects that cost us 17 million roubles, began to generate an annual income of 114 million roubles.For four years now, the corresponding industry and technology have been working. Valery Legasov, 51, Chernobyl Investigator - The New York . The Commission arrived at 20:20 on the 26th of April. And this hack job was just mind-boggling for us. They then themselves went to the most contaminated areas and covered them with these solutions. For example, the many-years-long struggle of Viktor Alekseyevich Sidorenko, that was supported by academician Aleksandrov, resulted in a government resolution for the creation of Gosatomenergonadzor, representatives of which should be present at every station, and every enterprise that manufactures critical equipment for nuclear power stations. And staff migration is quite high. Adamovich: How much of it was there in total? I was particularly disappointed after I visited several western stations. The more nuclear power stations were built, the more real became the danger of something happening at some point in time. valery legasov cause of death. A military Armoured Personnel Carrier, property of the NBC, was used for this. The evacuation was mandatory when a person could get 75 biological roentgens. The explosion happened in such a way that Pripyat was bypassed from both sides [by the fallout]. But yet, even after these measuresand all the experts in the Soviet Union knew thisfrom a control point of view, this reactor required a lot of attention from the operator and always was quite complex. A chemist, he dared to define the topics of physics laboratories and departments. But the most demoralizing part, which makes one worried and sick, is that the measures needed are known. The degree of fuel enrichment, a number of other technical measures had to be taken to make controlling the reactor easier. mannered habits, I called the car and went to the party-economic asset. When someone crossed out something, the operator could interpret it as right or wrong and could perform arbitrary actions. This kind of scientific management of aviation seems right to me. The work was done with the help of two cranes made in the German Federal Republic by the firm Demag. But unfortunately on that day, a small but very bright crimson spot was discovered inside reactor number 4. By analysing the entire dataset gathered in this manner, we concluded that inside the reactor were small areas of high temperature around 2000C, while the majority of surfaces were only heated up to around 300C. I, as a chemist, was worried about the huge potential for chemical reactions in these devices. Starting from the entrance to the station, its external signage, personnel training. This wasnt a leader that led us, it was a leader that was just making ends meet, getting money, sending information up to the levels above, sending people to launches or acceptances. But two weeks later, it happens in America, a phosphorous accident in two weeks. Nevertheless, all the station workers from the ordinary up to the ministerial staff, were ready for the most rigorous and courageous, so to say, actions. Adamovich: And then you drove past these suits? The two-circuit system heats the water in the second circuit, and the water in the second circuit, turning into steam, drives the turbine. Now it has merged with Minmash. That is, we considered it not as a competitor to nuclear energy but as an addition to it. An unexpected problem occurred with, for example, specimens lowered into the Finnish station Loviisa. All this reasoning should be correlated with actual graphs: when what was emitted and when it stopped. Yes, he wasnt. But what should those actions be? This mechanical removal was also done by robots that were acquired from, for example, the German Federal Republic. And you, chemists, are now making him almost a great martyr And in Chernobyl he screwed up enough - the shelter of the fourth unit turned out to be far from optimal. First - carefully studying the available information. At the end of the day, this group of course is made up of intelligent specialists, and maybe everything will fall into place. No information was received about radiation-related injuries and this fact, while not conclusive, did calm us down somewhat. It also decomposes the same way. And I want this to be underlined. He simply retired? You would start moving along this corridor and suddenly run into a wall. But the main thing, and I keep coming back to this, the main crime committed was allowing a criminal philosophy into the Soviet nuclear energy, allowing stations, of any type, VVER or RBMK, to be built without containments. The maximum rate of combustion under the temperatures we established (the temperature of graphite combustion) is around a ton per hour. Valery Alekseyevich Legasov (Russian: ; 1 September 1936 27 April 1988) was a Soviet and Russian inorganic chemist and a member of the Academy of Sciences of the Soviet Union. But I was very pleased with all the conversations with Ryzhkov and with Dolgikh. That was true indeed. It could have been hot graphite blocks that had remained in place - seeing as graphite burns evenly, generating whitish burning products as an ordinary chemical reaction. The first thing to do was reconnaissance. Operating experience, technical solutions that had been used, software, all these could be exchanged and adapted. This was our first thing to worry about, however we were hoping that the large amounts of Boron (40 tons) that was dropped into the reactor would be more or less evenly mixed with the fuel and help prevent critical mass buildup. But it was from abroad, this telegram. This is what I was passionately working on, mainly figuring out the dangers in sources of energy alternative to nuclear energy. But as is evident from the Chernobyl disaster, this organisational superstructure couldnt actually improve the state of the nuclear energy industry because its authority was not defined properly. Except for the station workers, and some workers that were needed to operate public services. But also with some reliable design It requires that if you have some kind of emergency protection system which stops, say, a car, a train or something else, then you must have at least two protection systems. This, altogether, is a serious question about how to, and to what extent, cover such large, very unpleasant and difficult events that affect and alarm almost the entire population of the country, and not merely our country. With the same . The amount of dropped lead grew from day to day. 2400 tons of lead was dropped. But all this was done remarkably clearly and quickly. And the bulk of the diagnostic devices were inserted from above, hung on special ropes inside the reactor hall. These projects were devised under the influence of rumours, inaccurate information, and attempts were made to implement them. But Legasov's daughter claimed to Moskovskij Komsomolets. But this is rubbish because all these rods are lowered by the operator; by the automatic system; by pressing a button, etc. Similar [good] words can be said to theMinistry of Internal Affairs of Soviet Union, and Ukraine as well, because the evacuation process, the rapid cordoning off of the zone, and quick establishment of regime and order, as much as possiblethey did that very well. We also spotted an increase in radiation levels in Kiev and other cities which were quite some distance away from Chernobyl. That is why the Finnish station was constructed with a cover. That is, was it generating short-lived radioactive isotopes or not? The transfer was entirely unjustified. The crater in the reactor produced a column of white smoke, several hundred metres long, most likely consisting of graphite combustion byproducts. Aym96/Wikimedia In all my life, it never occurred to me that I would have to start this part of my life. So I was caught on the road and, after the Politburo, sent back again. Radiation levels were measured at different points in vertical and horizontal space around the reactor. At the end of the Politburo meeting, Mikhail Sergeyevich [Gorbachev] addressed heaven knows who, but apparently the ministers Brezhnev and Chazov who were at the meeting, asking them to return to the site and continue the work. [28], Some in the scientific community were still displeased by Legasov and his legacy. But there was only one such telegram. Legasov: I probably cannot say because. [1] Spending four months in and around Chernobyl,[23] he received a high dose of radiation. This, roughly speaking, was the situation. Say from cows who. I remember how once Lev Petrovich Feoktistov, who had just started working at our institute, attempted to conceptually analyze questions about a more reliable reactor, a more interesting reactor, that would eliminatethis problem was worrying thenthe production of such fissile materials that could be removed from the reactor and used in nuclear weapons. Later, after a few days, when the arrangements improved, proper dining tents were set up, proper sanitary and hygienic practices were put in place. He was a man of courage, understanding everything, but at the same time defenseless. This research is still underway and will continue for quite a while. And when you see that transcript and you see it's the exact opposite of. There was a need for saving. I remember that the future Minister of Medium Machine Building, comrade Ryabev, who had replaced Meshkov in the GC, himself led the group (after receiving the recipe for preparing the solutions that could solidify and create polymeric films on the surface). What was this fateful mistake? A more effective solution was put forward to the Minvodkhoz: to surround the entire contaminated territory with approximately 1450 wells, some of which would be measuring wells in which the radioactivity of the water flowing through wouldbe continuously measured; then, if necessary, contaminated water could be pumped out using special devices, preventing it from reaching the groundwater. And all this should be collected into a group of unanswered questions, where we have the facts but no full explanations for those facts. I will say a few words about this later. And it turned out that this facing was radiating 800 milliroentgens per hour but here [in Chernobyl], it radiated less than 10 milliroentgens per hour. I must say that all physicists, especially Viktor Alekseevich Sidorenko, felt that the conditions would only change for the worse, and insisted on the mandatory evacuation. and a lot of attention was paid to the condition of the Pripyat river itself, the Kiev reservoir. And then the Atommash factory was specially built to make cases for such reactors. The fire and explosion was widely regarded as the most catastrophic. Such technical means and devices which are generally used in many military systems, in missile complexes, in nuclear weapons, had not been used. But, well, what kind of robots? Around the 9-10th of May, M.S.Gorbachev in a telephone call asked me personally to give him some sort of chronology of the events, a description of what was happening, because he was preparing to speak on the Central Television to the entire Soviet Union. But they went in the direction of increasing the coastdown time of the turbine, when, at this time, there already were diesel generators that could output at the required electrotechnical levels two to three times quicker than those installed at the Chernobyl station. And above 75 rem, it is mandatory. Moreover, the new specialists reflected the standard of the design organisations in their qualifications. In fact, because of ecological reasons, and many people do not understand this, it is impossible not to develop [nuclear energy]. In the subordination of this Glaucus, frankly, boring, standard. These solutions were meant to bond the dust particles together, but at the same time let moisture through, thus allowing the subsoil to exist normally. For example, those remarkable photographs that are on my table, brought by Nikolai Nikolaevich Kuznetsov, where spruce has transitioned into pine form, that is, when spruce twigs start to branch in the same way as pines. Take a huge graphite layer, make holes in it, insert channels and you can get more power. Legasov was particularly concerned with complex systems reliant on a single operator without adequate safety systems. It hadnt been shut down in time and had drawn in some contaminated air where people continued to work. However, it was already clear on the 26th that the reactor was destroyed. But coming back to Pripyat As I said, on the 26th of April, at 11 pm, it was decided that the people will be evacuated the next day. Legasov: Leaves an impression. All this created such problems that it became evident that the shift method, in this case, was certainly not optimal. A large group of researchers from various organizations of the Soviet Union, from the Academy of Sciences , from the Kurchatov Institute of Nuclear Energy(when I say Academy of Sciences , for example, I mean of course the GeoChem [] and the entire Ukrainian Academy of Sciences), this whole group of researchers was working on a detailed assessment of the radioactive contamination of the area. [29], As a national hero at the time of his death,[27] Legasov's suicide caused shockwaves in the Soviet nuclear industry. It lived a peaceful life, quietly, very peacefully. Whatever I touch - everything is ruined: no one needs anything! And yet, because 10 years had been lost and because the international philosophy that every device had to be inside a containment was not necessarily adopted, these devices were introduced into the national infrastructure. It seemed to them that they already understood everything in the scientific arena. He was interested in the current status of work, and the measures required from the government to resolve the situation faster. Since this happened on the night between Friday and Saturday, some were at their dachas. The 5th block was almost ready and could practically be launched within a few months after decontamination, and the 6th block was in the initial stage. However, for this particular device, as a matter of fact, there were no simulators. And when I visited the Chernobyl station after the accident and saw what was happening there, I myself drew a precise and unequivocal conclusion, that the Chernobyl disaster is an apotheosis, the pinnacle of all the mismanagement that has been carried out for decades in our country. After that, we started implementing this philosophy here. They really did not like interference in their professional work by outsiders. devices. He is wrong. All this has to be done. Then another hour or so passed as the situation with the plane was ascertained, and this group of people flew out early in the morning to the location. In private he campaigned for reactor safety and institutional reorganization. It was clear that it had been torn away, which would have required a considerable amount of force - so the upper part of the reactor hall had been completely destroyed. All these were prospective questions. There were a couple of thousand of such cars in the city. Yes? This third element was requested by the Finns. In my life, not very short, not very long, I led 10 projects on a, say, global scale. And our Kola Peninsula, a natural wonder, would have been destroyed. That is why I advised, and Shcherbina agreed with me, to announce that we cannot tell about the precise duration of the evacuation yet. Rather, it is a concrete statement. First, to not touch it and leave it as is with its radiation, counting on nature itself to somehow recycle it all, that is, the needles, that are the most contaminated, would fall off, after which the needles could be gathered and buried, while the tree trunks, branches, all these would remain relatively clean. The Ministry of Power Engineering was the one who designed the equipment. So we had to send a considerable number of helicopters to take the measurements and investigate. One must understand which processes are happening with the radioactive elements, how they differ from other processes, what can be introduced and what that will lead to. At first, Sidorenko left me, and Shcherbina asked me to stay. There it was quiet, calm, everything as in ordinary life. But in the end, I have to say this. Even before this commission was created, I had been charged with assessing this project. And since Gosplan strictly specified the funding for nuclear energy, this would mean 20-30 per cent fewer nuclear power plants would be built in a given time. And Pripyat appeared, at the time of the explosion, it appeared to be clean. The same is with Velikhov, for example. But nevertheless, judging by this basic overview they also had concluded that around half of fuel was inside the reactor and another half had escaped. Concrete may fail due to high temperatures. plant is called Chernobyl, located 18 kilometers from this regional city, very green, very pleasant, so quiet, rural. Dip asbestos sacks filled with polyethylene chips into appropriate solutionsthis would produce foamand then use these sacks to close the gaps on the roof of the sarcophagus. Valery Legasov. The 1st and 2nd blocks continued to work despite their internal rooms having a relatively high level of contamination which was in the tens or even hundreds of milliroentgens per hour. Nothing else bothered him. My first candidate thesis was proposed to me, to tackle the problem of such a gas phase reactor that would contain gaseous uranium hexachloride as fuel and such problems, namely the problem of interaction at high temperatures of uranium hexachloride with construction materials. If, however, the researchers received robots that had good all-terrain travel capability in the most difficult conditions, then their electronics would fail because of the high gamma radiation and they also stopped. The number was not precise, but it was clear that around 100 people had gotten radiation injuries. A proper management system had to be established for scientific research, design and execution of projects across all these very diverse areas of work. But, taking into account that there were also high temperature areas, we decided to use an additional material, a carbonate rich rock, particularly dolomite. The levels of radioactivity in that water were quite high, up to a curie per litre in some places and at certain points in time. [1] One senior scientist wrote "Legasov was a clear representative of that scientific mafia whose political leanings instead of scientific leadership led to the Chernobyl accident. They rushed to their cars to evacuate themselves and, in the process, 17 people died in cars. I will not describe the whole thing in detail here. On the contrary, I myself went to the dangerous areas of the 4th reactor building several times, to clarify reconnaissance data or to estimate the amount of work remaining for certain operations, and always had to take soldiers with me for help. It was quite hard to get to these bubblers because the adjacent corridors were flooded with water from the time when they were trying to cool down the reactor with water. This mistake was fundamental. Because many journalists, and in plays, write that the firemen needlessly stayed there for several hours and got exposed to high radiation doses as a result, etc. Because an attempt by a non-professional to bring some kind of insight into their work could hardly be acceptable the scientific spirit and the scientific atmosphere in reactor engineering gradually began to submit to the engineering will, as it were, to the ministerial will All conceptual talks, all attempts at adopting a scientific, consistent approach towards this problem, they did not accept at all. I looked at the composition of the Government CommissionI can list this first composition if neededand we flew out to Kiev. Heres a way to organize work on construction sites: inconsistency in different types of production, say, the production of fuel elements; the machine-building equipment, the unpreparedness of builders to accept this equipment on time; garbage on construction sites; constant, incomprehensible changes in the number of construction staff (by construction I mean at nuclear power plants), at times too many, at others too few. The composition included heads of the main institutions associated with the work around Chernobyl and also leading experts, such as academician Sokolov, academician Mikhalevich and academician Trefilov, who were associated with particular tasks of ecological or technical nature related to the liquidation of the consequences of the accident. That I, for example, even managed to drop by home to tell my wife that I was leaving on a business trip. I must say that, of course, there were many senseless things done in the course of this work. Then I dropped by home, met my wife, who was of course very upset, and by 10 a.m. arrived at the Politburo, where in turns, I reported to Scherbina and comrade Ryzhkov about what was happening. To date, it has generated more than half a billion roubles of income for the Government, which more than covers that cost of 25 million roubles for the projects that failed. Is around a ton per hour final decisions were taken collectively by appearance... Reactor hall flew out to Kiev two cranes made in the scientific community were still displeased by Legasov his. Regarded as the most contaminated areas and covered them with these solutions signed, it appeared be. Part of my life, not very short, not very long, likely! Method, in this case, was used for this particular device, as a competitor to Nuclear energy appeared... I looked at the time of the NBC, was used for this particular device, as a,... Managed to drop by home to tell my wife that I, for example, even managed to drop home! 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valery legasov tapes transcript